Roe vs. Wade with Dr. Han Ren

The last few years have felt dark, but recently they grew even darker when Roe vs. Wade was overturned. In today’s episode, Dr. Han Ren joins us to share her initial thoughts on the overturn, how it impacts communities, and some important resources and support on this topic.

Dr. Han Ren is a licensed clinical and school psychologist, consultant, speaker and educator. She is the co-founder of Pivot Psychology Austin, a group private practice providing culturally-affirming psychotherapy and assessments. She is deeply rooted in liberation and anti-oppressive work, practicing from a justice-oriented, interpersonal, and systems-informed framework. Through her keynote and corporate presentations and widely viewed work on social media, she strives to make mental health accessible and applicable to our daily lives. Dr. Ren addresses the pursuit of collective healing through her work and activism centered in historically overlooked communities. When she’s not in the therapy chair, you can find her laughing with family and friends, caffeinating with black coffee, dancing offbeat to live music and Peloton-ing.

This is Season 2 Episode 8 of Here’s the Tea with Akua

Here’s the Tea with Akua is a safe space to learn about hot topics, gain a new perspective and have a greater understanding of the people around us. You’ll hear amazing stories of everyday people like you and me. They’ll be spilling the tea and giving us an honest look into their lives. As we discuss topics such as race, relationships, mental health, and how to just figure out the thing called life, we’d love to have you subscribe on Apple PodcastSpotify, or your favorite podcast player!

Important Parts of the Conversation:

Today’s Topic: Roe vs. Wade (:50)

Get to Know Dr. Han (1:51)

Initial Thoughts on Roe vs. Wade (3:55)

How Roe vs. Wade Impacts Communities (8:25)

Marginalized Communities (10:22)

Resources & Support (15:54)

Election Voting (22:53)

Money & Impact (25:15)

Encouragement (26:17)

Connect with Dr. Han:

drhanren.com

LinkedIn

Facebook

Instagram

Subscribe to the Podcast:

Apple Podcast

Spotify

Roe vs. Wade

Review the Transcript:

Akua Konadu
Welcome to here’s the tea with the Kua. That’s me. And this is a place where we have candid conversations about various hot topics. Each week, you’ll be hearing some amazing stories of everyday people like you and me, there’ll be spilling the tea and giving us an honest look into their lives. I believe that our stories are powerful, and when shared, they can change not only our perspectives, but also our lives. No topic is off limits. So have a seat and get ready because we are going to be making uncomfortable conversation comfortable.

Akua Konadu
Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of here’s the tea with Akua. And, first of all, thank you so much for being here. And and being a listener, I’ve today’s topic, we are gonna, we’re just gonna go there, okay, y’all, there has been so much heaviness, and so many things that have been happening in our world in the past two years. And I feel like every single day, we’re just getting hit with something else, something else, something else. And so, but I think what’s really important is for us to really sit back and really educate ourselves, I feel like Knowledge is power. And so that’s why I’m really, really excited for this topic. I’m really excited today for this guest. We’re going to be talking about the overturn of Roe v. Wade. And I know people are going to be like, Oh my gosh, like this is political. But human rights have become political. Right? This affects a lot of people. And so I’m really excited today that we are having Dr. Han Ren to be able to share with us her knowledge about this and what we can do. So Hello, Dr. Han. How are you?

Dr. Han Ren
I’m great. Thank you so much for having me today.

Akua Konadu
Yes, thank you so much for being here. So I’m just gonna happen. So for our listeners, share with us who you are how you are making your impact in the world.

Dr. Han Ren
Yeah, I am a licensed psychologist. I’m based in Austin, Texas, I have a group private practice where I specialize in overthinking overachievers, children of immigrant, racial identity development, and racial trauma. And I started a tic toc halfway through pandemic in the fall of 2020, kind of for shits and giggles. And it really took off because I saw that there were a lot of kind of generic mental health tiktoks accounts out there that didn’t really talk about our center the experiences of bipoc mental health. So that’s what my platform is entirely about, especially people who live in all sorts of marginalized bodies and have marginalized experiences or as I prefer to call it historically overlooked because we didn’t marginalize ourselves. And I really want to bring that to the center of our conversation discussion is how do we support and amplify the experiences of AIPAC and those who may be overlooked by our systems?

Akua Konadu
Yes, love that so much. And y’all that is how I found Dr. Han was through Instagram, because her content is fire. Okay. Please check it out. Because it’s, it was a great and it’s educational. And you really just like you cut through the bullshit, like, you’re just a straight shooter, I get your content, which I loved and appreciated.

Dr. Han Ren
A minute, okay.

Akua Konadu
I gotta squeeze it in. And so yeah, it was it was just loved. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have to reach out to you to have you come on the podcast. So I’m just so so glad that you’re here. And so I just I kind of want to hear a little bit about what your thoughts were like, what were your initial thoughts when you heard about the news that it was overturned? Like, I knew like obviously, there was the leak that happened and people were already on edge. And then boom, it was a finally announced, like, what were your initial thoughts and emotions that you were experiencing?

Dr. Han Ren
Yeah, I mean, there’s such an intensity or like, Is this real life this is really happening. And it’s just, you know, we’ve had such a series of collective traumas over the past two and a half years and counting him really since 2016. And I mean, quite honestly, if you are a person of color, or have any other marginalized identities, like it’s been happening even way before that, it’s just becoming more and more apparent more and more kind of rapid fire that like our rights and abilities to exist come under fire. And so there’s a lot of thoughts obviously, the devastation and fear and uncertainty but also like, what does this mean for me as a mental health professional and my like, quality of care and what how I operate and what I will be beholden to when it comes to legal oversight, and how will I have to adjust accordingly, and, you know, the ripple effects are just continuous and we’re still feeling it and trying to figure it out.

Akua Konadu
First of all, the fact that you even just I didn’t even think of that is yes, like health care professionals, like people, mental health professionals, how all of you have to adjust now and y’all are in such a very delicate position. Like I didn’t even realize that till just now hearing it. And it’s like, having to the amount of trauma that people are going to experience that you have to work through. And then even doctors where they’re not even allowed to do their job to provide medical care. Like that’s a whole nother ballgame that I didn’t even think about. Yeah, and I mean, I’m in Texas, so. Yeah, like, Oh, my goodness, while I like, I guess from you, like, have you heard other feedback, too, in regards to that? Like how even like yourself, like you just mentioned, like, how you have to adjust like other people? Like, what are some of the conversations that healthcare professionals are having?

Dr. Han Ren
Oh, yeah. I mean, I asked my therapist, I’m like, Okay, I know the answer. But I have to just be explicit and clear. And I need to hear from you. What would you do if I were to share an unplanned pregnancy and I want to access resources? And I want to know, and like, that’s a conversation that we had, and I’m like, Are you gonna change the way that you provide care? Or you’re going to change the way that you provide documentation? What does that look like? So, you know, the individual level, there’s these conversations that are having and then as, you know, clinicians, we have to make, you know, values, alignment types of decisions, and how are we going to work with this? What is right or moral versus legal. And then on the next skill up, like, I’ve also gotten, like, updated legal terminology, informed consent paperwork, from like, these bigger practices, and like, agencies are like, if you share about abortion, your, you know, provider may have to provide this to somebody if it gets asked for subpoenas or like, don’t share, but then like, why is the burden placed on the individual, you know, in so many layers to this, that you just like, you?

Akua Konadu
Yeah, literally, that’s literally what I thought of like this is so it’s, to your point, yes. Because, yeah, you really don’t think like, of course, the main thing that we’ve been thinking about with where we’re like, yes, of course, this heavily affects women. But there’s so many moving pieces, so many layers to this, and everybody is experiencing some type of trauma in some ways. So even this to why you want to say in this episode is just having empathy and compassion for yourselves, but also having empathy and compassion for others. Because this is a really, really hard time for a lot of people. And we really, like I said, there’s so many different angles and perspectives and complexities to this that we really don’t know, at all. Like, I just learned something new right now, because it hasn’t even been a thought in my mind, right? Because we’re thinking about me myself. But even for you as a mental, like a healthcare professional, that’s a lot. That’s a huge burden. And so, again, just wanted to address that, y’all. But I guess to just even details about Roe v. Wade overturned, can you just go ahead and explain that because I feel like I just remember seeing it on Instagram. And I think people are still having some misconceptions. But I remember what like seeing a clip from the news where Pete like, they really had to reiterate what it what that meant. And I still feel like people are still confused on the overturn of Roe v. Wade, and how that this now applies to each state individually. So can you just go into more detail about that?

Dr. Han Ren
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, depending on where you get your news, you have different ideas of what this means. Like, for example, my mom is very not aligned with politics from me personally. And so she thought, because of where she gets her news that like, oh, every state gets to decide. And like a lot of you know, it’s not illegal, like a lot of states are going to make it continue to make it legal, which is true in some states, but there’s a lot of states are like, Nope, we have been just waiting. We have these trigger laws. As soon as this is not protected on a federal level anymore. We are putting in our own laws as a state that makes abortion completely illegal. And for example, in Texas, you know, it doesn’t matter if you have a baby who will, you know, has a condition that’s incompatible with life. It doesn’t matter if your 10 year old who was a victim of rape or incest, like this is just not something that medical professionals are allowed to do to like, you know, except now that Biden had an executive order like to save someone’s life. Yes, but if there’s other ethical, you know, reasons that people might want or need an abortion, it is something that you have to travel out of state in order to get and of course, that affects people who don’t have the resources or mobility or finances to do that, or even the education to know like, how do I even know if I’m pregnant? And of course that affects people who are marginalized and, you know, living with the multiple layers of systems of oppression Sian and yeah. All right.

Akua Konadu
Yeah, it is and and to your point yes, like Minnesota, I think we are what we are one of the states that are still providing abortions 110%. So shout out to Minnesota for that. But we still have other issues, but shout out to you for specifically for that. I’ll give you give you all the thumbs up. But speaking of marginalized communities, and this is something that I really wanted us to touch on because your even your Instagram, like how I found you, like touches on this, because historically, everything that happens whether, you know, like, for example, COVID, right, anything that happens, like major whether it be with healthcare, like health sickness, or even just with this Roe v. Wade, it always impacts marginalized communities first, and I’m realizing that people still do not understand why because now everybody is in like, specifically white women are in an uproar now about this. But for years history, they have been doing abortions to people of color for a good ass minute, like literally not even that long ago, like in the 60s, they were doing like sterilization amongst black women against their consent like this has been going on in marginalized communities for such a long time. And now that it affects specifically white women, they’re in an uproar, and then expecting women of color to join it and her like, ma’am, this has been happening for a good minute. So anyways, I there’s a lot of questions within that. But yes, there’s so many layers within that. But one question I want to ask and I’ll ask another one. But can you just explain how this affects marginalized community heavily? Of course, it’s affects all women, but how does this affect women of color?

Dr. Han Ren
Yeah, yeah. And women, uterus owners is less or trans people, yes, who are already reticent to get, you know, reproductive health care, because of the ways that they will be discriminated against. And it’s something that has been happening in our history within this country, like, out of sight out of mind for so long, both forth, forced sterilization, but also forced births, you know, the like, trope of the wet nurse and the the mammy like that’s been going on, and they even looking at like, like the ICE detention centers, the amount of forced sterilizations there and like, indigenous communities like it has been happening under our noses in this country, but it has not affected the comfort of white women and people who have money and access and privilege. And so it wasn’t that big of a deal because they weren’t living with the ramifications of it every day. And even if you before this could technically get an abortion, are you going to know that you’re pregnant underneath that like window? Do you have the sex ed and knowledge to know the signs? Are you even if you do notice that you’re going to have to scrape up the money to like get to a clinic in time? Do you have someone to drive you home? If you get the time off work? I mean, so many barriers that have prevented people who don’t have access and privilege from getting reproductive health care and reproductive justice for so much longer before June 24. But because now this is something that affects people who historically have had access with no questions asked, it is causing a nother layer of uproar. That is quite honestly very unfair burden some and you know, angering to people of color people who were like, where are you? We’ve been fighting for this, you know, reproductive justice has been ongoing because communities of color like black liberation, especially, has been seen this coming down the pipeline, we know that it’s codified into law, it’s not protected.

Akua Konadu
It’s not and at first I just want to say thank you so much to for including the LGBTQ plus community like yes, people with uteruses people who can give birth so even for me like that’s a check for me too, as well like again, this does not just affect me this affects every body in some way, capacity, shape or form. And if you are a white women listening to this and what this is episode is like, we’re calling it out, but we’re not this is not to shame you, this is here for you to educate yourself and get the knowledge and understand your privilege here of how this really affects like you other people in a different perspective and a different lens. And so to challenge you to really educate yourself and figure it out to like, because we get now here into intersectional feminism, right? Because there was a lot of feminists like again, why they were just so upper age and like talking about women’s rights, but it’s like, feminism does not include people of color and people with uteruses like the LGBTQ plus community as well. It doesn’t not include that it’s all mainly the needs of specifically white women. I don’t consider myself a feminist because it just just like, ism. Yes, exactly. And so that was that’s a whole nother layer as well. But again, like this is to really challenge you to really look at things, again, from your outside perspective, from another person shoes, because for you like getting into your car and going down the street, that’s not it, or going to wherever you need to go, you wouldn’t think twice about it, but some people that they don’t have that access, right to a vehicle or the money, or, you know, just even the education. And that’s everybody. Right. So again, just wanted to kind of really, really preface that. And so I guess too, even with everything that’s happening, what are some ways number one that we can all support each other? Number one, and what other resources like what are some resources that people can really like, look into?

Dr. Han Ren
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, if you are new to this game, and we’d said this in 2022, when everyone was just like racial justice, you know, and there was such a, like, a sense of urgency, like, first of all, a sense of urgency is a white supremacist cultural value. So recognizing when you feel that like, you know, heart fluttery, Paul, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let’s slow down, let’s breathe, let’s like, check ourselves and yes, you know, time is of the essence. And we are not going to solve any of this overnight, it’s been ongoing. And so take the time, take a beat, to really notice what’s coming up for you individually, and then educate yourself on what’s been going on in this area collectively, before you got to the races, because it has been going on. And you know, like, I’m definitely like, newer to it. Like I really got into this around, you know, like after Trump’s election, which in the grand scheme of things is very new. But in recent years, it’s like, I’ve been doing it for a minute longer than some other people. Yeah. And it took a lot of humility and swallowing pride to be like, Okay, I don’t need to know all this and be an expert, because I’m not I need to read and learn from, like black liberators who have been doing this, you know, all the womanist voices and authors, Audrey Lorde, Bell Hooks, Angela Davis, like all of these phenomenal authors who have been writing about collective liberation, and activism and abolition, and, you know, all the ways that our Liberation’s are tied up in each other’s before 2020, before June 24. So there’s a whole body of work there. And then from that perspective, you know, from that point on, fine, what’s already it actually, there’s so many grassroots like, organizations, abortion funds, abortion pipelines, like, it’s been so funny to see all these like, tick tock creators or like, if you need to come camping in my state. I love the energy. Tension, but like, you know, what? If you’re new to hosting campers, you probably don’t want to be trusting that campsite. Okay. Yes. What are you doing? No, oh, oh, just won’t try to reinvent the wheel, find somebody else’s cause and amplify and join them? Because this has been ongoing for way longer than we’ve been here.

Akua Konadu
Yes. I love that, too. Yes, yeah, that’s a really good thing. Like be intentional to with what you’re consuming. Because yes, there are people out here who are obviously attempting to take advantage of people’s vulnerabilities because this is a very, very vulnerable time. But I loved what you said to have even just like taking what’s already there and adding to that, because that just shows again, how powerful we are together, because I feel like we’re such an individualistic society, like naturally, again, this just points to the reason why people now give a shit because it affects them personally. But they didn’t care when it was affecting a specific group. And so I just love that like, really, again, it just adds to the fact of how powerful we can be together and so even just talking because midterms are coming up, which I’m already feeling the tension again, I’m like already, what are your thoughts? Like, how do you feel that Roe v Wade? I mean, that’s, that’s on the table. Yeah, I mean, hands down. I mean, so like, what are some of your thoughts right now in regards to like with midterms coming up and Roe v. Wade?

Dr. Han Ren
You know, this is such a hard, hard topic to hold with, like, some balanced perspective, because I think that a lot of spaces that I occupied hanging around, you know, like more leftist spaces like they’re like, Oh, don’t vote voting is for schmucks. Right, and it’s like, but you kind of have to vote because this is not the end all be all but it is one established pathway, you know, so I do have more of like a middle of of the road philosophy when it comes to something like voting, like, yes, like voting your local elections and state elections, especially, you know, because the local politics really do affect the, you know, local policies most. And voting is not the only way because, oh, democratic burger that’s over sorry. The contradiction and the paradox of that, and that is a really like, kind of a mindfuck thing to swallow. It’s like, I’m going to do what I can and and like, you know, one of the things that me and my, my, my work partner, have, you know, following her trajectory is she’s been like registering people to register others to vote, she’s like, people to Wagner registered people to register.

Akua Konadu
Yeah.

Dr. Han Ren
around that, and knowing that, like, voting is one slice of it. There’s a lot of like, kind of grassroots causes and activists, like coalition’s to know about, and it’s all it’s hyperlocal, you know, mutual aid all of these things. And, quite honestly, I think the biggest thing that everybody needs is money. Yes. And so it’s like, that’s one of the ways that I feel like I can make the most impact is like, I donate to grassroots mutual aid, local funds, and then I also amplify, and spread awareness around the existence of these and you know, just through social media, does it feel like enough? No, no, nothing will ever feel like it’s enough. And yet it is recognizing that, you know, incremental change is better than no change, and change will never be enough.

Akua Konadu
Yeah. So first of all, I love that incremental change is better than no change. And I will say, as somebody who has looked at your content and has enjoyed it, like you’re making an impact, I was like, Oh, she’s doing the Lord’s work. When I was looking at your content, because you like I said, it’s just no bullshit. It’s straight to the point. And it’s hard truth, but it’s the truth. And that’s what we truly, truly need. And even in regards to midterms, I love that you said that, like, I wanted to ask you this too, because just as a woman of color as well, even with voting, like I feel like for me, I, I don’t really like to vote. I hate it, because it’s two parties that don’t really has your best interest as a person of color from a marginalized community. So I just, unfortunately have to just vote like, Okay, this kind of seems like this would be my best be. Sir evil. Is that YouTube? Is that a very common thing with marginalized communities?

Dr. Han Ren
I mean, I’m in Texas. So yes. No hope? Yeah. But do I vote in every single election? Yes. Like, if there’s two things on the ballot, and there’s propositions about some, like green space or whatever, I don’t care, I will vote in it. Because it is one way that like, at least allows me to feel some sense of agency. And when it’s hyperlocal, like that, the turnout is so so so low, so it actually makes more and more difference. And it’s one of those things that like, I don’t love that this is the system that we have, but I don’t feel like I have the option to opt out. Yes, because that is I mean, that is privileged, so people don’t even think about it. We’re like, I am going to go and live a waste free life on an organic farm and form a co op, and we’re gonna grow pineapples in Hawaii. I’m like, wow, off the grid living in Hawaii, like, that is privilege beyond like, I mean, marginalized people, we do not have the option to exit the grid. We live within the system. Yes.

Akua Konadu
Yeah. And that’s certain, like, even just like people in my family and people and most people in my family vote, but I do have a few that literally say, Why the hell would I vote? The system is broken, doesn’t care about marginalized communities. So why would I even bother? And I know that there are so people that think that way, but again, to your point, like incremental change is better than no change and every single vote matters to make the change so they can better impact your life because yes, we as people of color, like just even LGBTQ plus to like marginalized communities, like it’s always our lives, that’s always up on the table for discussion. And I’m confused. You know, it’s just it’s yeah, it’s really interesting. But again, like even just with midterms to your point, like really do your work and do your due diligence, to educate yourself locally, because I think that’s something too that the last election really highlighted was just how important local like voting locally is, if not more, actually, probably outweighs a lot more than the big vote like, you know, for presidency and midterms. It really is. I mean, obviously midterms apart. But like locally, really do your due diligence and educate yourself to make sure that you’re making just an informed decision because there is so much noise out there. And it’s really difficult to really just like, sift through. So I really love that you just like shared all that and money, money. You can’t change the world without money.

Dr. Han Ren
Yeah, capitalism.

Akua Konadu
Oh, yay. But yes, even donating to you. I think, well, it just makes such a huge impact and even $1 goes a long way, right? Like, what the impact that you’re making? Because we’re all Changemaker? Isn’t that something that I just like? Yeah, I really appreciate you talking about that, because it just reminds me like, oh, yeah, like, I There are little things that I can do. Because even if it can just benefit one person in this right now, who you know is stuck right now is with Roe v. Wade. And I know there are a lot of people may not be that are stuck, if I can at least help one person to help them get unstuck and have clarity on how to move forward and help provide those resources for that, like you’re doing your job folks. You know, I think that’s such a great way to, to really look at it. And so I wanted to ask you to or any words of like encouragement that you just want to share at all, with every with anybody with everybody? Yeah,

Dr. Han Ren
you know, one of the things that I love the most about collective liberation work about liberation, psychology, is just the, like, necessity of joy, pleasure and rest, you know, just like, you know, Adrian Marie brown pleasure activism, like, and also just the, you know, veer towards joy, and rest as not optional, that these are acts of resistance, these are radical. And it is so helpful on a personal level, because it allows me to just like, still enjoy the things about my life that I find enjoyable, and like really make time for those things and like protect those things. And to have that be connected to the bigger picture. Because so many people enter this space and like, like, Okay, I want to be an activist, I want to be an ally and advocate, and then they burn themselves out because they feel so guilty, if they take a break, but yours know, nothing that you can do if you’re burnt out you’re like too much by and so pace yourselves, you can pace yourself. And part of that is to rest and to do fun things. And part of forming community and building community is playful, it’s fun, it’s to actually enjoy getting to know each other. Yes, you’re devoted to a common cause. But you can also like, shoot the shit and get to know each other as humans. And that is something that we forget. And it’s so necessary if we actually want to sustainably move towards liberation.

Akua Konadu
Yes, so good. Because that’s something even to I’m dismantling, still is rest because it’s like a COA. You can’t be the impactful individual that you want to be if you are not well rested, if you have not experienced some joy, because again, there’s just so much heaviness happening. And yes, that’s something too I’ve also noticed with 2020 into 2022 Is that a lot of allies have honestly stepped back, which I want to be really all this is Dr. Hahn’s life. This is my life. This is our every single day having to navigate as a woman of color or an individual from an marginalized community. This is there every day. So I’m saying this as accountability to this is take your time to rest but don’t quit because this is a never ending fight. I mean, literally, I know, we’ve just what was it was the like 157 Republicans voted against the protection of gay marriage, right, like an interracial marriage. Like, there’s so many other topics that like Roe v. Wade, like from Roe v. Wade being overturned, where it’s like opening the doors to other things, other rights that affects specifically marginalized communities. So this is again, calling people forward to come in, join us and be able to again, learn and I love what you said earlier, just about like humility and like, just to educate yourself. Like we all even me myself, I’m still doing that I’m learning as well about other people, other cultures. And you do have to put your pride aside. You have to come from a place of humility and be able to receive what people are giving you despite the fact that it’s hard despite the fact that it’s uncomfortable. So, thank you so much for that. Like I feel like such like a weight, like just hearing you and your perspective and your knowledge has been just amazing.

Dr. Han Ren
No, thank you. Yeah, I think we forget about the necessity of taking that break because it is drinking from a firehose and You know, part of white supremacy culture is also this divide and conquer this siloing of information and knowledge and community and like pitting communities of color against each other. Like, we don’t have to reinvent the wheel, or like, create information from scratch, like there is so much that’s already existing and they are siloed by design. So if we just work to integrate, and not, you know, on even like a big scale, but just like internally, like integrate the different parts of ourselves, like, that’s already doing so much of that work, and it makes me think of, you know, emergent strategy like Adrian Marie Browns work again, around like fractals, like everything that’s happening on the larger scale happens in smaller scales too. And on the smallest scale, it’s happening within you liberates the mind.

Akua Konadu
Oh, so good. Liberation starts with the mind. Oh, my gosh, noted. So good. And so for all of our listeners, Dr. Hadden, where can people find you connect with you? If they want to reach out for more questions, or just hang out with you because you’re super, super dope. And I have enjoyed this conversation.

Dr. Han Ren
Yeah, I’m on tick tock and Instagram. As Dr. Han Ren you can also find me on my website, Dr. Han ren.com. And I also have a private practice. So my clinical stuff is on Pivot psychology. atx.com.

Akua Konadu
Awesome. Oh, thank you so much for this episode. I really, really appreciate it. And y’all, if you have any more questions, please reach out to Dr. Han because she is phenomenal. Her content is fire. Number one. So if you want to learn more, just is it what is it called again? Liberation. You said that liberation, yes, liberation psychology, like, please follow because I’m walking through that right now myself, which has been, it’s new to me, but it is so good. And it’s been so healing and so freely freeing. So I just want to encourage you all to just go follow her because it’s amazing. So thank you. Thank you so much, Dr. Hahn. And thank you all so much for listening. And until next time. Thank you. Thank you so much for tuning into here’s the tea with Akua. If you are loving the podcast, I’d be so honored if you go ahead and hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcast player and leave me a review. This helps grow the podcast so more people can be impacted by the story shared by powerful guests like in today’s episode. Until next time, go make uncomfortable conversations a little more comfortable.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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