Healing is a hard journey to go on, especially when it comes to deprogramming and unlearning everything you were taught as a child. For Madison Morrigan, after seven years of marriage, she found herself questioning her relationship, her idea of marriage, and even her sexuality. Through many struggles and hard conversations, Madison walked away from the life she once knew and is on a path of self-discovery and healing. Listen in as she shares about life after divorce.
This is Season 3 Episode 9 of Here’s the Tea with Akua
Here’s the Tea with Akua is a safe space to learn about hot topics, gain a new perspective and have a greater understanding of the people around us. You’ll hear amazing stories of everyday people like you and me. They’ll be spilling the tea and giving us an honest look into their lives. As we discuss topics such as race, relationships, mental health, and how to just figure out the thing called life, we’d love to have you subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player!
Today’s episode is brought to you by Ama and Akua, a mother-daughter brand specializing in gift boxes filled with talented BIPOC and LGBTQ+ creators. No matter the occasion, we have a box for you. Use the code AKUA10 for 10% off your first order!
Important Parts of the Conversation:
Madison’s History with Religion & Marriage (3:33)
Coming Out & Finding Herself By Leaving the Church & Her Marriage (6:54)
Confronting the Patriarchal Ideas of Marriage (10:03)
When Women Are “Too Much” (14:36)
Going through Divorce (17:22)
Healing & Timing (20:55)
Deprogramming Homophobia (23:25)
Privilege Guilt & Shame from Her Marriage (29:37)
The Portal to Understanding as Queer & Neurodivergent (32:03)
Neurodivergent Diagnosis (33:37)
Rebuilding After Divorce (39:01)
The Layers of Healing & Trauma Digging (47:45)
You’re Not Broken (55:00)
Connect with Madison:
Subscribe to the Podcast:
Review the Transcript:
Akua Konadu
Get ready for an unfiltered and also real episode of here’s a tea with Akua. This week we are joined by Madison Morgan, a five time international award winning life coach, host of the award winning everything belongs podcast and amazing speaker and a talented writer. She takes us on our profound and captivating journey through her life during a challenging divorce. Buckle up because we are diving deep. We explore the painful realities of divorce, the significance of embracing self acceptance, dismantling oppressive systems like patriarchy and whiteness, and the transformative power of honoring our own healing. Madison’s heartfelt and why storytelling serves as a powerful reminder that we all deserve to live our lives openly and freely. Life is far from being just black and white. It encompasses a wide variety of situations that profoundly shape us. By embracing the complexities of our own personal journey, we rediscover our true selves and step into the individuals we were always meant to be. This episode serves as a gentle reminder that our stories are far from over. We possess the remarkable ability to forge ahead and create lives that aligned with our most authentic selves. Now before we dive in, I do want to give a trigger warning that there are references of abuse during this episode. If you’re not in the headspace to to listen to today’s episode, please hit the pause button and come back whenever you’re ready. Now let’s dive in. Welcome to here’s the tea with Akua. That’s me. And this is a place where we have candid conversations about various hot topics. Each week, you’ll be hearing some amazing stories of everyday people like you and me, there’ll be spilling the tea and giving us an honest look into their lives. I believe that our stories are powerful, and when shared, they can change not only our perspectives, but also our lives. No topic is off limits. So have a seat and get ready because we are going to be making uncomfortable conversations comfortable. Madison, thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. How are you doing? How are you feeling?
Madison Morrigan
I’m feeling really grateful to be here. Thank you for asking. And also it’s like a rainy, humid day. And that just makes me want to be cozy and like I’ve been writing all morning and kind of got caught up in that. And it’s it’s a nice transition out of like my inner world back to some reality. Yeah. Oh, thank you for having me.
Akua Konadu
Absolutely. Thank you so much for being here. And so thank you so much. Also, as well, for just being willing to share such an intimate part of your life with our audience in your journey. It truly is such a gift. So I just want to say that first and foremost, just so honored to have you here because it is it’s a beautiful thing when people are willing to come and share pieces of themselves with the world. And so I’m just so grateful that you’re here with us today. So thanks again.
Madison Morrigan
Thank you. Thank you for saying that. And I’m honored to be here. Yeah, absolutely.
Akua Konadu
Okay, so let’s just hop on in. I’m right. So we’re talking about life after divorce. And personally, for me, I’m not married, I’ve never been married. But I do think just the complexities of relationships and how we move in this world and just the layers of life. I really wanted. I was interested in learning more about this topic. And when one door closes, another one opens. And what does that journey look like in between? And what are things that you discover about yourself when such a major thing like that happens? So can you just share with us a little bit about your journey? You know, what was like a glimpse into like, what your marriage looked like?
Madison Morrigan
Yeah, I mean, goodness, I got married to a man. So just to clarify, I was married to a man and I got married when I was 20. So I was he was my first like real boyfriend’s freshman year of college we met and I was very in like a, I would say a high control group version of evangelical Christianity like I kind of self indoctrinated into that it was a it felt a lot safer than my home life. In a lot of ways. It was like, God loves me. I was like, that sounds great. Like community there was there’s so many benefits of being a part of that community. And there were a lot of downsides as well, which, you know, indoctrination, like losing autonomy over your body, those sorts of things also happened. And so my ex husband, and I mean, I was gonna go there, we didn’t even see each other naked until our wedding day, like our wedding night. So we were like, fully, I mean, we made out but you know, we we followed the rules. I thought I was so naive. I thought everyone was following the rules. I like didn’t realize, or just like throwing that rule out. I had no idea. I followed the rule to a tee. We didn’t even see each other naked until our wedding night. And I kind of just was very caught up and at the time and being a good Christian woman, a good wife. And like, I really, at the time, I didn’t know I was ambitious. I didn’t have any career goals. I wanted to be like just a good Christian wife and My ex husband’s, you know, he was raised in the church, he was a pastor’s son. And that really, you know, that suited him quite well as well. And at the time I was in college because I was 20. By the time I graduated, no, we hadn’t we had an okay relationship, there wasn’t a lot of problems, the like, we’re both the same Sun and Moon Astrology. So maybe we just like had the same way of doing things in life. We lived well together. But I would say maybe four years into the marriage, a lot of the ways the church that we were going to we’re doing things stopped working for me, I started having panic attacks before going to church. I was like, starting to confess my doubts, like something isn’t right about this, like I have no one will let me ask questions. All the answers to my questions are circular reasoning and leading me back to like, like, this isn’t even logical, like, the way that we’re answering these questions. And so I was at the first like, rupture inside the relationship was really that like, well, when we were young, we were immature, we didn’t know anything about being married, like our premarital counseling was basically like, never deny your husband’s sex, and that will save everything. And so there wasn’t a whole lot of like, healthy guidance. And my ex husband was a great person, you know, he’s not a bad person. But we both just had that like patriarchal indoctrination, that we had not been taught to critically look at, which kind of shoved us into these toxic gender roles that didn’t actually align with our personalities, like, I am a type a person really ambitious. At the time, I was doubting my faith, asking questions, I was like, being the bad woman who was leading my husband astray. And eventually all that to say, eventually, I left the church before he did. And I kind of was like, I can’t do this, it feels like a lie. It doesn’t feel like a loving God would require these things of me. Like, it was truly my relationship with God that had me leave the church. And at the time, you know, he was like, you’re gonna go to hell, it was just so dramatic. Now, it’s funny, I’m thinking back, because I just don’t subscribe to any of that. But it was so real. And at the time, it was so like, I was leaving the church, it felt like God died. To me, that was such an important part of my life. And I was so afraid to lose my marriage, I lost a lot of my community. In the process of that, you know, people were afraid to talk to me, because I was not like, you know, the devil. And around that time, you know, I graduated college, I decided not to go to school, I wanted to be a sex therapist. So I was like, I’m not going to do that. I’m going to explore coaching for a little while. And then my career like exploded. And that became quite an issue in my marriage, to be quite honest. I realized I was ambitious, I was no longer held back by these ideas of what a woman should be in the church. And I was making more money than my husband. And I was, you know, finding my passion. And it was a struggle for him. Like, it was a really, there was a lot of like, he didn’t feel man enough, he didn’t feel masculine, and he wouldn’t need any more like, in my feminine. I remember, like certain comments, which I know, he didn’t mean to be unkind, but he was like, if you could just be more in your feminine, I could be more in my masculine. And then this marriage could work and like, like, if you could just like cook me breakfast in bed, and I’m like, I don’t know, like, I don’t know about that. Like, that’s just not gonna work for me. Like, I’m happy to do that sometimes. But like, he wanted a stay at home wife, to make him feel like a man. And the more I was learning, and the more questions I was asking him, the healthier I became, you know, sort of go into therapy, I was doing trauma therapy, the healthier I became, the less Christianity works for me. And the less my marriage works for me. And I got to the point where I was like, you know, if I have to keep leaving things, when I’m healthy, are the things that don’t work when the healthier I am, maybe they don’t work whenever there’s health. Like maybe the core of this isn’t based on something healthy. So all that to say it was like, I would define it as like fine, great companionship so much in that we were together for nine years and married for seven to the day, which is so wild. Wow. Literally, I moved. I moved out on our seventh wedding anniversary. Timing just works like that. For me. For some reason. I’m like, I’m always finding it like, Okay, this isn’t an exact date, or very significant astrological date, I guess we’ll I guess life is supporting these choices. But yeah, it was. It wasn’t bad. It wasn’t toxic. It wasn’t explosive. He wasn’t a terrible person. But there was the more I knew myself, the less those constructs worked for me. And yeah, we’re on good terms, and he’s a good person. And, you know, he’s kind but then I didn’t even get to the part where I’m like, then I realized I was gay. So like, and also also, you know, I had left the church I wasn’t but I was actively confronting these patriarchal ideas of marriage. Like, I really was realizing I didn’t want to be a mother, I was realizing I wanted a certain kind of life and autonomy and to be able to, like be who I really was in the world. And there was a lot of monitoring of like, the clothes I was wearing. And were they feminine? And were they like, were they modest? Just these, whereas I had, like, really was thoroughly like, I was reading Bell Hooks, I was asking a lot of questions about, like, what is femininity? You know, what, what is marriage? And I think for him, like the traditional idea of relationship really worked for him. And he wasn’t so much open to he was open to like, not being a part of the church, but not really questioning, like, kind of the white supremacist ideals of the evangelical church. And for me, I was like, we have to look at these things. So he just, we were going about it in different ways, going in different directions. And I was still so subscribed to being good, I was still so subscribed to being a really good wife and to playing this role. And the way I would describe it is like, for about three years, I kept asking my mentors, like, should I get a divorce? Like, should I should I leave my husband? Like, what should I do, and was completely unconscious to my own queer identity? Like, I there were signs, but I did not notice them fully in my shadow. And I made really good friends with a community of folks who are looking for more like minded community, right? I lost all my Christian friends, I was like, looking for people who are spiritual, but not totally whoo hoo, like, we’re grounded. So I found this group of friends. And one of the people I met was a woman who was a yoga teacher. And we developed a really beautiful friendship. And I remember after about four months of friendship, being like, this feels different than other friendships. And I was like journaling, like, this is the most amazing person I’ve ever met. I never want to lose them. Like, what is this feeling? And I wouldn’t let myself really admit that it was attraction, because I was like, Oh, that’s weird, because I’m not gay. So I think it was some some denial and some magical thinking of like, I must only be having these feelings, because I’m not happy in my relationship. So I just need to double down on my marriage, instead of acknowledge what’s really going on for me over here. And in doing that, I like simultaneously was trying to address my marriage and then falling in love with this woman. Until, you know, I just had to tell my, my now ex husband, I was like, I’m falling in love with my friends. I don’t know what to do. I didn’t know I was gay, I would have had better boundaries with this person had I realized, but that was so deeply into, I was in denial. And within a couple of weeks of telling him, I had decided I wanted to divorce. And so then, you know, then we split up. And that’s a whole different journey. But that’s, that’s a nine year synopsis. Yeah.
Akua Konadu
Yeah. Which you told beautifully, because I am just like, wow, I think just so much to unpack, there’s so many layers that even I feel like I could relate to, you know, I am a believer. But I also walked away from the church and for much, much different reasons. But just for me, the lack of inclusivity with people of color, the LGBTQ plus community like and so I think I love the fact that you question because I feel like it’s okay to question your faith. Number one, like you were doing all the things that many of us do, and some of us have been shamed for. And that’s just, you know, what I mean, I feel like that’s normal to question and come from a place of curiosity, because certain things also as well with me just didn’t align. And I wanted to ask you earlier, like, did you feel like your marriage was rooted in patriarchy, and you answered it already, you know, types of things. And I also mean, myself as a woman also struggled with that, because I don’t fit into that mold. And there’s nothing wrong with that if people want to be a stay at home mom, or Yeah, but there’s other options. And we’re never presented with them, especially in like organized religion, we’re not presented with those options. And I feel like we as women should be able to choose the life that we want, and also have partners that are supportive of that. And I’m not saying that that’s everybody in the church not but there is this, this common thing that is popping up where people are being shamed for living their life truly, for them. And so they can be who they are and be the best versions of themselves. So kudos to you.
Madison Morrigan
It’s always the women are who are too much you know, like it because it works. I have some friends who like stayed in that and it works for them. And I will say they haven’t like maybe evaluated the ways that they’re still kind of subscribed to some patriarchal and toxic ideas of whiteness, you know, there hasn’t been critical looking at that. But like the belief like I still so feel connected to God into the Christ. message. And it was so wild to me that I was being told that like, that couldn’t be true, because I have a business. And that couldn’t be true, because I’m going to therapy. And it was just like this is the cognitive dissonance is so real. Yeah. And this was all before, you know, the Trump situation that really feels even more the depth of some of these things in our culture. And I think people are a little more open to this conversation now. Because it became so obvious races, the racism in our country became so obvious that homophobia became so obvious. But I would say like six years ago, seven years ago, eight years ago, whenever some of these things were happening for me, like, I didn’t know, I didn’t know where to look, I didn’t know where they were, I think maybe the liturgists podcast was like the first podcast I placed, I was like, oh, people are asking these questions. And, you know, not being shamed, not being told they’re too much not having to lose their entire communities. And so yeah, I think now there’s maybe a little bit more awareness. And maybe I’m naive to the fact that some people are stuck in places that there aren’t. But I do think like conversations like this are happening now. Which I love. And I wasn’t in them before,
Akua Konadu
that’s for sure. Yeah. And I’m just super grateful that those conversations are happening. And but and that’s I’m saying like, early, like, kudos to you, because it’s still brave, no matter the timing, you know, just the obstacles are so much different. So the fact that there weren’t maybe as many resources available, and you still were like, This doesn’t feel right to me. I’m just gonna and I love that you said that it took God for you to leave the church. Because that is a thing that stuck out to me, because that was similar to me where I was like, I feel like this is not what I feel like there’s more to God than what’s being presented to me. And I want to take that upon myself to go figure it out. I can’t trust what I’m hearing. You know what I mean? And so I love that you shared that. And so when you were officially just going through your divorce, what was that process like for you, especially since you mentioned that you fell in love with a woman? So you’re navigating your sexuality, you’re going through a divorce all the logistical things, there’s that whole layer and then having to deal with your, you know, trying to navigate now the new relationship with your ex husband at the time, and then also too late, you just had a lot of things happening. We were working through. So what was that like for you?
Madison Morrigan
completely overwhelming. You know, I, I, I had been contemplating and talking about divorce with my, you know, my then husband before it came out before any of that had happened. You know, I remember a couple conversations where I was like, I need to be honest, I don’t think marriage has to be forever. Like, I need to be honest, like the way that we’re doing this doesn’t work for me. And so it’s tricky, because it’s so easy to be like, Oh, I was clear. And that’s my main why my marriage ended. And sure, that was a catalyst to being like, oh, you know, it was a it was an easy out. I will say like, I I almost like, waited so long, and wasn’t so much in denial about the marriage not working. Because I had, I’m notorious for like deciding how life should be, and then not seeing reality. Like, I’m like, this marriage is going to be amazing. And all of the signs that point to No, it’s not, it’s not being amazing, like, these things aren’t happening. I’m like, well, it’s going to be because I will make it so yeah. And I’m a type A ambitious person. And so like, I willed it to be as close to my what I really wanted as possible, without ever truly a saying like, this isn’t what I want. And I’m not who I was when we got married. I’m five different people since then. And we need to, you know, reevaluate the structure of this. And so he he didn’t, but he knew, you know, these changes were happening because we were in conversation, but throwing in the element of realizing I was queer. I was devastated. Like, you can’t have something like that in denial for so long and not have internalized homophobia. You know, like, I had no idea and I was like, I didn’t even I wouldn’t even say I was queer. I would just say, I’m oddly attracted to this woman. I don’t know what it means. I’m having these feelings. I don’t know what they mean. I couldn’t even say it. I was so ashamed. Like, I’ve had the story. Like someone like me isn’t supposed to get divorced. Someone like me isn’t supposed to implode their marriage. I was so I also had a public business at the time. And I was I was so embarrassed that like, how could I miss this about myself when I teach about getting to know yourself? And I teach, you know, deprogramming from these cultural ideas. I missed this. Like, how did that happen? And so I was just, gosh, I had a lot of shame about it. I was also overwhelmed. I wanted to do it right. Like I had I wanted to do too. Horse, right? I wanted to do coming out, right. And in doing that, and like deciding that there was a certain way it should be done. I honestly feel like I heard everyone, because I was, I wasn’t being just like, honoring myself. Like I was trying to honor myself and caretake everybody, which made everyone confused, including me. And I wish I’m like, How do I say I don’t want to go back and do it differently? You know, I’m not in the relationship that I got into after I left my marriage anymore. I was in that relationship for two and a half years. And I learned so much as a result of it. But yeah, I just, it was overwhelming. And I’m trying to, I’m thinking back to that time. It was it was this time of year. So it actually was, it was this week, four years ago. Okay, I
Akua Konadu
think it’s just what’s
Madison Morrigan
that? Told you. And I told you before sort of recording that my ex actually, my ex husband messaged me last week and was like, let’s have a phone call. Let’s catch up. So I’m like, the timing of this is just so wild. Yeah, I was four years ago, this week, I told him I want to divorce. And then we lived as roommates for a couple of months. And our lease, like, I couldn’t get a new place to live, like I was on the move out. And like the timing didn’t, like match me just to move out. And I also like, we had a trip plans. And I like wanted to still go on the trip that he and I had planned. So we went as friends. It was like, so awkward. And I was like, I’m also going to start dating. So like, we’re living together, I’m dating, we’re going on trips, and it was just like, it was too much like I but I was trying to do it. Right. Like I was like whatever right is I had to set you know, I needed to like follow this certain prescription for honoring everyone except for myself. And in yet I was honoring myself for like I was being honest, as honest as possible. As honest as I had capacity for to myself, I was being honest to everyone, you know, it’s me, usually who I was. Yeah. And he and I ended up having like a closing ceremony on our seven year wedding anniversary, which happened to be June 30. And it was the last day of my like lease. And so the next day I moved out or that that day, I moved out and started my new lease. And then I mean, I basically just was like I, I need to have distance from I need to have some distance from him and set some firmer boundaries at that point. Because in that process, a lot of his internalized homophobia came out. And I was like, gosh, being in this marriage feels like I have to educate you about everything. Like you could read a book like you, you know, you know, I don’t have to like do this heavy lifting because that had been I was realizing the healthier I became and the more aware I was becoming of like how patriarchy impacts relationships. I was like, I have to do my work so I can help you do your work, then I can eventually ask for my needs to be met. And maybe you can meet them like this is exhausting. Exhausting. And so many women have to do that. And I can only imagine a woman of color with a white man like how you know how that must be.
Akua Konadu
That’s a whole nother conversation girl. Yes.
Madison Morrigan
Because I even now, you know, even though I had been programmed the same way as him by the church, you know, we had the similar ideas. It was like, gosh, I remember him asking me and this is not to shame him because he meant it from a genuine place. But he was like, he went through a list of my friends who thought were attractive and asked if I would sleep with any of them. And like, couldn’t like get he couldn’t he couldn’t conceptualize that. It wasn’t for him that I was clear. Like he was like what would you sleep with someone I think is hot. Would you open our marriage to someone that I think is attractive? And I was I don’t think you’re realizing that I’m grappling with like my entire identity as a sexual being. And it’s not to like please you
Akua Konadu
exactly right. Just trying to make it this miniscule, you know what I mean? thing and, again, making it where it’s surrounding his needs. And it just it doesn’t work that way it
Madison Morrigan
and he didn’t meet you know, he’s coming from like, the best he had. You know, it’s a huge ego blow to like, get divorced, to learn your wife is attracted to a woman whenever you think that like, it’s all about being a man. And that’s there’s a lot going on. You know, hopefully he’s had support and I think he has to like heal and to learn and do better. Because me, you know, I was homophobic. Like, I didn’t want to say that I was clear I had ideas of like, well, you know, I’m feminine. So i How could this be possible and all the internalized bullshit that we get when we never see an example of someone like us being who they really are so then the paperwork? Gosh, that’s the worst part. I mean, I just finally got an ID with my new name on it. Oh, it’s been four years. I mean, there was the pandemic, yeah, slow some things down. But that part was that the hardest part for me maybe it was getting work done. All in all, though, like, I never regretted it. It, it was harder. Before I decided it once I made the decision, the hardest parts where I was devastated that I was hurting someone. I knew he was hurting. I knew that he didn’t understand. And even though he he knew the marriage wasn’t working, like, you know, he wasn’t in the dark about that he knew. But he had ideas of like what a good man was and what a good wife was and what staying married meant about you as a person. And I think for both of us, it was a huge ego death. And it devastated me to hurt him. Which is I think, why I waited so long to bring forward my true feelings about the marriage and about, you know, having feelings for a woman, I think I sat on that privately and only telling myself for like four months, I told the mentor, and then they were like, they actually deny that I was wild, which is wild. Yeah, they were like, Are you sure? Because maybe it’s just nervous. Maybe you just feel regulated around their nervous system, because they do nervous system healing. And maybe you’re confusing that for attraction. And I’m like, I’m literally telling you, I’m coming out to you. And you’re telling me, No. But that’s how closeted and like, an obvious it was, which you know, is what’s so funny. This is just a side note, my current partner, Jen, she’s amazing. She was a friend of mine. I’ve known she wasn’t like a good friend before. But like, I know, I knew her for about eight years before we got together. And she whenever I came out, she was like she was now she was married. And she was like, I’ve been waiting for you to come out. I just, I just had a feeling. It was like, I would never I would never say that to someone. And now I’m like, feeling or do you have a feeling? You know? But pretty much like no one in my family suspected? Like none of my friends were like, Yeah, of course, you know, it was it was a surprise to everyone else.
Akua Konadu
There’s just so much there’s so many layers, there’s so many layers. And I love that. I love that, like so many. One, I just have to say, again, thank you so much for sharing this, because this is just truly amazing. But even just I think for me, just hearing to like the internalized homophobia I like that is I think of myself, just how deconstructing whiteness still even as a black woman. And so I think again, it just speaks to the fact of so many things that society has placed on us that we are now given the burden to have to really deconstruct to figure out and that’s just not an easy thing. And that is I guess for me, I always think of when people come out. I’m like, yeah, it’s a big celebration, like Hell yeah, you know what I mean? I’m so excited, happy for you. But I think I just loved that you just shared more those intimate details, because it really is not an easy thing to come to that conclusion. And you kind of feel like you have to let go, you’re letting go of the old pieces of yourself that just no longer worked and taking up something that’s new. But it’s really difficult to do that and the feelings the grief that you walk through because you were sacrificing pieces of yourself to make everybody else happy. And it just wasn’t sustainable and it just wasn’t working. So that’s hard to have to now try to put yourself first and put in like this is me this is who I am. Every being looking to make a lasting impact with a meaningful gift look no further than a bong Akua. As a mother daughter business we specialize in providing gift boxes filled with products from talented bipoc and LGBTQ plus creators, whether it’s a birthday anniversary, or simply just because a Monica has the perfect gift for any occasion. Visit our website Amana chua.com And don’t forget to use the code Akua 10 at checkout for 10% off your first order. Start creating your unforgettable gift experience today by exploring MA and Akua at a mA and akua.com That’s a mandakua.com Now let’s get back to the episode
Madison Morrigan
I honestly like I remember being so pissy about the privilege I was like I like people that like once follow me on Instagram you know once we’re connected to my work would like you know stop following me like people are going to trust me less people are I had all in in they developed new community who’s like You’re amazing and wonderful. But there are people who really do trust me last are people who see me differently, or people who regard me as truly like, as less. And the I, I knew my marriage looked really good. Like, my ex husband was very attractive. We looked great together, we had like an image. That was, I feel like really easy for the majority of people to celebrate. And even like, even though it wasn’t honest, I was attached to it. And I I knew there was privilege associated with that. And I was like, this sucks. It sucks to give this up. I don’t want it. I don’t I don’t want the marriage but like, the privilege associated with it. It was that was a tough blow to let go of.
Akua Konadu
Yeah, you know what, Madison, I’m gonna just say that you’re a white woman that can get behind. Okay, that’s a whole nother conversation in regards to privilege.
Madison Morrigan
Yeah, I mean, thank you. I. It is not, it’s not easy. Looking at that stuff, whenever like looking at it brings up shame and like, you know, privilege, guilt, privilege, shame, all that stuff is real. But it’s, it’s better to just be like, fuck, like, I don’t I don’t want to be associated with this thing that makes me think I’m better than other people. Yes. And it’s just an illusion. And you know, that whenever you have a heart for something different, but you’re living in the facade, because like, culturally, it provides you something. Yes.
Akua Konadu
And that’s something I’ve had conversations about in different spaces of, you know, in terms of deconstructing so many different things. What are the person who were in power in some capacity that have some privilege? What are they willing to give up? Because something’s going to everything in life comes at a cost, something’s going to have to be given up in order to be able to uplift those that are being oppressed. And so I that’s kind of where so just even you, I was like, you get it? 1000 person
Madison Morrigan
I listen, I try. I guess, you know, I think being queer and also neurodivergent, I think there’s a there’s a portal to understanding, it’s not the same understanding as someone who is a person of color or black person. But like, if you’re listening to yourself, there’s an adjacent enough experience where you can be like, maybe I should listen and understand. And I think anyone who has any marginalized identity, hopefully can understand that that sliver is a portal to understanding someone else’s experience.
Akua Konadu
Yes, yes. So true. So I’m just loving this conversation.
Madison Morrigan
Me too. And also, like, I haven’t spoken about any of this, and so long, it feels so far away. And so like, gratefully, not deeply impacting my life anymore. But it’s fun to talk about it with like, a lot of space from the last time I’ve spoken about
Akua Konadu
because I feel like you process the new things that maybe you didn’t even at the time, obviously, when you’re going through it, it’s still hurtful, but then you’ve moved on. And you’re like, Okay, this doesn’t trigger me as much emotionally anymore. But ya know, then you bring it up again, years later, and you’re like, huh, like, that’s totally same thing with me when I asked things about my story. And I’m like, did not think about that even a year ago. But now I am. And so it’s really interesting, the things that come up when you reshare certain aspects of your life. And I’m really curious, because you mentioned that you’re neurodivergent so even being queer and neurodivergent. Like, what did you just find that out recently? Or like, was that to during this whole? The whole process of going through divorce? Like in your marriage, going to divorce all of that jazz?
Madison Morrigan
Yeah. You know, I always knew that I was neurodivergent because I was in like, my gifted class was called spectrum. I’m like, couldn’t be more. Okay. So there was always that, like, you’re a part of this very strange, small group of people that school who like, can’t do regular work and must have, you know, more work because you’re so bored. You’re distracting everyone else. My, my dad and his mother and his brother are autistic. And his brother is like, nearing nonverbal, but like a very intelligent person, but just not great socially. And so like, I knew I was a little bit like them, like I always knew, and I knew that I had some social like, stuff. I also have trauma in my childhood. And so it, it doesn’t it didn’t matter so much to me, which it was, you know, there’s a lot of, you know, is it CPTSD? Is it autism, you know, is it ADHD? These things can present similarly, sometimes. And so, actually my current partner, I would say, three years ago, we were roommates before we dated. We were roommates in the need weren’t roommates. And and now we’re together and I guess we’re roommates again, but like, she’s my partner. A couple years ago, I was like, you know, I think I’m like, I’ve been taking all these tests. So online to see if I’m autistic and to see if I’m neurodivergent. And they keep saying I am, but I’m just not sure because I’m, I’m, I feel pretty good with people like I love people I like, you know, my whole job is about like, holding space for people. And she’s like, No, there’s no way. And then she goes to therapy and her therapist is like, you know, Jen, have you considered that you might be you know, neurodivergent. And so she actually came home from that, like it was a whole year later, it was like, Maybe you should reconsider, because I totally told you that there was no way you are neurodivergent because I just related to everything you were sharing, and like my therapist just we just we had a huge cackle about it. And by this time, I had been contemplating it for a couple years, I was starting to notice that everyone I really liked and who I was like feeling safest with happened to be neurodivergent, or autistic. And I was like, that’s really curious, all my best friends and my partner and you know, like, seem to connect in this way. And so I self diagnosed, I don’t have a formal diagnosis. Part of that is because of the discrimination that I am nervous about in our country at this time. You know, there’s been in the state of Missouri where I live, basically, transgender rights are being taken away, if you are autistic, like if you are autistic, you cannot get gender affirming care. That is a true, yes. And so this is recent in the last month and a half, but I’m like they’re targeting those people as incompetent to make their own choices. Wow. And it’s to me, that’s very scary and disturbing. And there’s also certain countries you can’t move to if you have a formal autism diagnosis. But it’s not to say anyone should or shouldn’t, those are just things that I’ve been thinking about. You know, as far as getting that diagnosis, the way I’ve moved through this personally is like, it doesn’t to me, it doesn’t make a difference. If my brain is different due to trauma, or due to ADHD, or due to autism or neuro divergence. What matters is that I’m getting my needs met. Yeah. And so what I’ve been centering in my life is my honest capacity, that making sure that I have what I need in my life to like, actually take care of myself. And not what it did for me was it helped me not shame myself for what my needs are. Because I always have felt too much not enough. Like I was annoying all these different things. I’m like, oh, like, regardless of the reason I don’t have to be ashamed of that I can just not be around people who think I’m too much, because maybe I am for some people. And I can just make sure to have snacks on hand because I can get in a runaway train and forget to eat. And so I should probably, you know, have some snacks and routines that support me. So I have much more to say about that. But that’s kind of how I’ve been going about it personally. Yeah.
Akua Konadu
Oh, that is so good. And I think that’s just so many good reminders in there. Even you just saying like, Oh, how you carry snacks on the go. And so with that, it’s like you were worthy of taking care of yourself worthy to just having boundaries, you’re worthy to eat like those very simplistic things, you are worthy of being your best self. And really creating those environments that support that. So I love that you shared that. And so now I’m going to have ask you two questions, because I was like, Oh, God, I’m trying to keep track of time. There’s so many things I want to and so Okay, so as your even you’ve already touched base on a lot of it. But you know, as you’re walking through like after everything, what did it look like for you to rebuild yourself you’ve already shared like so many, like different aspects of areas where you have been but anything else that really sticks out to have what did it look like to really rebuild your life? Because he even mentioned to you with like your business that you know, people your audience clearly has shifted? Right? Like you definitely had people that maybe just didn’t agree or you know what I mean with the direction that you were going with your life and so therefore maybe just didn’t want to do business? I mean, I guess what did that look like for you just rebuilding and letting go of the people that obviously to just didn’t serve you anymore? Yeah,
Madison Morrigan
gosh. I mean, about the time I got divorce, a what had been a couple years since I left the church. So I had gone through a big grieving process of losing a lot of people. And I was actively trying to rebuild at the time that I got divorced, because I I was actively meeting people who felt more aligned. And I really think that my divorce came as a result of feeling more myself. It looked like destruction. It looked like you know, falling apart, maybe on the outside. But in a lot of ways it was due to my health in a lot of ways. It was due to the fact that I was moving towards well being. I haven’t mentioned this yet. But at that time, right after I got divorced and came out I also went no contact with two of my family members who are were abusive or abusive. And also, I’m seeing them this weekend for the first time in a really long time. So again, the timing, because we’re having my grandmother’s celebration of life. This weekend. She had So in the fall, and so we wanted to celebrate her, obviously. But what that did was I, I lost the foundation of stability. Like even though my ex husband and I weren’t a perfect match for marriage, we had created enough safety for me to heal and feel protected from an abusive childhood. Like, truly. And I think that’s one of the reasons I got married so young and went into the church, because I was looking for family, I was looking for safety and love. And so, you know, I separate from him. And then it occurs to me that like, my family dynamic, like I don’t know how to be in it alone. Like, he’s always been a buffer for me, and a sense of like, protection and safety. And so very quickly, I had, I went no contact with my mother and my stepfather and have been now for like, what, like 42 months or something. And that sent me into a grief process that I feel like this was, gosh, it all just sounds so dramatic. And I’m like, maybe I should really like write I am writing a book about it, it just takes a long time, because it’s exhausting to like, dive into all of these things. But it sent me into a deep healing season. And I had been in therapy, I had done some EMDR I knew I had trauma. You know, like I was doing healing, I thought, but I thought like, all that was behind me, I’m living my best life. And after my divorce, I realized that like, I had done a lot of really important like ego building work of like I can, I can make my way in the world. I can, I can decide I want to do something, and I can see it through. And these are really important developmental markers to build a healthy sense of self. Because previously, it might, you know, I didn’t have a good sense of self esteem. I was chronically insecure. At the time I got married, I remember my ex husband me like you apologize for everything. It’s like almost meaningless, how much you apologize, because I just, I lived like, embarrassed and like I was sorry. That’s just that was my default. And by the time I got divorced, I had a sense of self worth, like I was coming into, like, actually, I belong to myself, actually, I can trust my decisions actually, like, I’m worthy of a life that I’m choosing of my own choice of my own sovereignty. So from that, like beautiful sense of health, it actually opened me up to a lot of grief, not just losing the marriage, but of realizing that I had never really felt safe in my life, that I had never been nearer, like who I really was because, you know, my mother had a mental illness. And my stepdad was abusive. And so it was, it’s so beautiful to be able to like do all that almost like self improvement work can lead you into allowing space for healing. Yes, because you’re stable enough to do it. So then the pandemic happened, you know, this all this happened in 2019. And then we went into the, we went into 22. I was like, I’m gonna live my best life, but it was like lockdown. And my puppy died. And it was just like a week after lockdown. It was just like, it was my Saturn Return. Wow, it was my Saturn Return. Yeah. Which thankfully is over. I’m so glad. Because this season of my life, it really, it was like, I was like, how am I the healthiest I’ve ever been. And feeling the worst I’ve ever felt. But it was because I had never been safe enough to heal and to grieve and to feel what I hadn’t felt. And that relationship with my ex like I you know, it had its problems because the way it started was you know, I was married. I you know that that’s not my favorite way. That’s not my favorite story about myself. So there was a lot for me to look at, and that there was a lot of family stuff to grieve. And my business grew like my business had with the two biggest years ever. So I was like, so stable yet grieving all these things. And I like like, wow, okay, but this is a whole the last four years, I would say in the last year, you know, I, my that relationship ended with that person. And she was, you know, she and I just weren’t right for each other. But it was extremely revealing about childhood dynamics. Wow, extremely revealing about what was going on and what I needed to heal and I, I went to a somatic therapist every other week for the last three years. And not not that often anymore, but that’s what I did through 2020 and 2021 in almost all 2022 And I’m still growing and learning but I’m like I feel stable in my life. Like I feel like my heart can feel great. If now, and it can open now, and I’m experiencing like with my current partner, I’m like, This person loves me for who I am. I didn’t know that was really possible. Like, I’m like, I know that’s supposed to be how it is. But like, like, no, she really, she loves me for who I am as a person. And I think that there’s actually so much ahead for me in learning what relationships are like, because in a lot of ways, we’re all rebuilding after the pandemic. We’re all rebuilding who we are what we want, our values have changed. What we feel is different from like, when I say I feel different, I’m like, I’m not the person I was two years ago, or four years ago, or six years ago, like I would I think that people who knew me like freshman year in college, would be really shocked to like, experience me now because I was just so gosh, I hate to use the word loss because it does sound so like, like, cringe Christian, like the kind of music I was last night. But I I do feel like that, like I really do. And I feel connected to God and to life and like a almost like a full circle of trust, like the what I felt in Christianity. And in God, when I found it of like, I’m loved. And this is safe, I feel in a new way. Because I actually am safe now. So I’m like, gosh, I just said so many things. I don’t even know if I answered your question. Thank you for listening. Yeah,
Akua Konadu
no, I loved it. I think it’s really amazing. I love what you shared. Because it’s made me think of myself a little bit were a little about my story. I am a survivor of domestic violence. I grew up in a, like a very abusive household, as well. And I just remember, like, Okay, I eventually did, you know, I left and started dealing with my life, you know, I’m living eventually living my best life, right? But certain aspects in our lives and relationships can also trigger something and then you’re grieving something, just just other aspects. And for me, I had to grieve like family stuff that also led me into, like, how I got into this relationship. So again, it really talks about exactly the different layers of healing 1,000% Cuz I had to grieve the things that I didn’t get as a child, and having to now provide that for myself as an adult. And then I’m like, How the hell am I going to provide this for myself as an adult? I have no idea.
Madison Morrigan
I’ve never seen it done.
Akua Konadu
Exactly. And so just been sharing that I’m like, Oh, my gosh, I have absolutely been through the same thing, still going through the same thing where I’m grieving certain aspects that I just didn’t get as a kid. And how do I show up for myself now? How do I honor myself now? And so I love that you even just touched on on that. And so just amazing. So yeah, thank you.
Madison Morrigan
i So really, I remember, and a lot of people will know Hillary’s name. But I texted my friend, Hillary McBride, who is a wonderful embodiment teacher. And I was like, can you just tell me this, like, a year and a half ago, I was like, I’m realizing I’ve never seen a secure attachment. I don’t know what that looks like, I have no reference points for what that’s supposed to be like. Could you tell me like, what that feels like? Not like from a clinical standpoint, but like in your personal relationship? Like, what does it look like? How you know, when there’s repair, like, what does it feel like to you? And I really, at that point, sort of realizing my whole healing journey had been trying to figure out what was wrong with me, because I like, between neuro divergence and trauma, I was like something is I can tell ya, I gotta figure out what it is. But it led me to perpetually focusing on like, all the things that were wrong. And then I was like, this bucket is endless. I could, I could dig it myself forever. And it kind of helped me start to what like water, it would, I like to call it the garden of goodness, like, there actually is momentum of health, like, I know what I want, I know what my values are, like, I can start adding on to the goodness and allow that to grow as opposed to digging and all the things that have happened to me and that are terrible about me, or that people haven’t liked about me to fix them. That has always been how I had approached my healing. And I would say over the last two years, and I will say there was benefit to identifying the problem, there’s always benefit to identifying the problem. But I could not find wholeness from that place. Like I just, I was almost becoming my own abuser. And at a certain point, I was like, oh, whenever you have, you know, in my case, a narcissistic parent or a narcissistic relationship, the whole point of like, the whole thing we do in that as we sent her the abuser, we’re looking out for their cues or we’re watching them or changing ourselves for them. And so we sent her danger we sent her the scary thing we center the problem, and I started realizing through realizing I’m like, Oh, I’m codependent. Okay, that’s a thing. Oh, I’ve got all this trauma. I’ve never learned to center my needs. Like what if I centered myself And what if I sent her goodness instead of you know how to protect myself from this danger? I am safe. I didn’t know I’m safe, but I know that I am. What if I just center my life on all of the good things about that I love on beauty. And I’ve I have found that like, my body seems to know how to restore herself to wholeness whenever I’m no longer allowing myself to be abused, and also no longer abusing myself. And like letting myself do things that bring me joy. So how do I rebuild? I’m like, I guess I’ve been rebuilding by like, allowing myself to do things that I like.
Akua Konadu
Yes. i That has really been helping. Yeah. Oh, that so much good things that you said, especially the way that we view healing. That yes, that is so powerful of just how we can easily become our own abusers. Yes, because we look at healing as this linear thing, I have this issue. I’m gonna work now do the work to resolve this issue. And then I’m good. And that is so exhausting. I like even recently was like, I’m done trying to heal. I’m exhausted. Yeah, totally right, when you have all these self improvement books, and like, you’re listening to all of these podcasts, and it’s like, you’re just like, that was me, I was listening to all the self help stuff. And I eventually just got so exhausted, that I was like, I just want to be right now. And I love that you just even changed my mind just now of just like healing. You can heal yourself by doing things that bring you joy, instead of and there’s nothing wrong, if that works for other people with like, self help, and all that stuff. Like I don’t care be okay, so I’m not going to act like those things aren’t valuable. And yes, identified in the problem, but not allowing yourself to be consumed by it, I think is what is so critical. And so I love that you shared that because so many of us really do view it that way, and I think are very exhausted, or I was like, What the hell am I gonna be done with this healing phase? Because we also always hear all the time that you’re never done healing. Okay, well, damn, I want to rest. Okay, I just want to, like, what else do I have to do to get what I’m wanting to you know what I mean? It’s just, you feeling very depleted and leaves, like you feeling ashamed and guilt, that you’re still not healed enough, you’re not good enough, I’m not healed enough for that relationship. That’s how I, I’m currently even deconstructing in my mind. And so you’re just sharing that I’m like, Oh, my goodness, that’s such a good way to look at it in terms of healing. And I’m like, you know, instead of me now just being, I’m gonna go to things that bring me joy. That’s what I’m gonna focus on and find healing through that.
Madison Morrigan
So and what I’ve discovered is like, in doing this, my shit will come up, and then I know what I need to heal, but to endlessly dig at myself, and try to find the things that are wrong. Like I call it trauma, digging of like, something must be wrong, I’m gonna figure out what it is, was like, you know, in my relationship, like if I perceive rejection that might really sting some old wounds. And like, do I have the tools to deal with that and to know how to navigate that if not, you know, find a coach, find a therapist, find a mentor, find someone who can hold space for you to teach you that, and then you have that tool. And it’s doesn’t mean you’re never gonna feel rejection or shame ever again, it means when it happens, you know, how to attend to it. And that is the healing. And so I, I, you know, I’m in the career of healing, like, this is what I do for a living. So I’m like, I, I feel like I’m so contradictory in saying, you know, there’s nothing to fix, actually, you’re already free. It’s like, how do we learn that we’re already free, and orient to our liberation into our wholeness, instead of this endless digging at ourselves. And to me, like, that’s what we need to learn. And I also just want to clarify for those of us who have see PTSD, and you have, you know, maybe something that happened in your childhood that really impacts you, like, maybe sometimes there is something that needs to be healed, and that that’s okay. But to spend your whole life like I did, believing that, like you are broken and a problem and a self help project. There’s like no humanity in that. Yes. So gosh, I’m on a pedestal now. I’m, like, very passionate.
Akua Konadu
No, this is so good. And I know this is going to be so impactful for people listening, because I think that is such an important thing. Because I know for myself, like when I left my relationship, and just even my past, I have always viewed that I’m too broken. For somebody to love me, right? Like I have been, I have all of these scars, and nobody’s gonna want to deal with that. I’m too much. So even when I would get into relationships, I would really temper myself down like really make myself as small as possible, but then I ended up doing something very self destructive, because I couldn’t live that way anymore. And I didn’t know how to express it. So just I really Yeah, so just so many different things. And I’m already looking at the time Okay, so we’re already close. But I least want to close with just asking this. Are there any words of encouragement that you would like to share just in general, we’ve talked about so many different things and your journey and so anything that you would like to share be great
Madison Morrigan
Yeah, you know, I think you’re not broken. And like, it’s actually not a problem. I was writing this morning. And I don’t know when this will come out, but I am writing an email series called alive again. And it’s all about fools wisdom and how like, actually, some of the deepest wisdom is backwards wisdom, and it almost seems like it makes no sense. And so to be like, I’m experiencing all this, all these problems, like, what if there actually is a problem with that? Like, what if this is how it’s supposed to be like, I’m I’m hurting, well hurting because I was abused. That makes sense, actually. So that’s really not a problem, like, so can I learn to be with myself, like, I’m not a problem, because I’m not actually responding appropriately to what has happened. And I am really, like, in all those emails, but the one I wrote today, it feels so so present, like, stop trying to fix it, fix it, and manage it. And just remember, like, you’re actually not a problem, there isn’t a problem, there’s nothing to fix, all you have to do is relate to this moment. Like, in this moment, I’m feeling grateful to be here. It’s easy to relate to it. But you know, maybe someone leaves a nasty message on my Instagram. And I’m like, pissed. And that’s a hard moment to relate to, but I’m really not being wounded, there’s really not a problem. I’m just experiencing a hard feeling. And I know how to do that. And so that would be my encouragement is like, if it feels good, and not like gaslighting yourself, because sometimes we can do that, if it feels good for you. Like ask the question, like, what if, what if what I’m experiencing isn’t actually a problem, and just see how it lands. And also, if it’s a contemplation, and you’re like, it is a fucking problem, then great, then go from that place. But it’s been really, it’s been really helpful for me,
Akua Konadu
I love that I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, it has been just so life giving and amazing and I can’t thank you enough for coming on here. And just being so vulnerable, and raw and real about your journey. And truly, truly a gift. I’m gonna say, it’s always a gift. It’s a gift. And so, thank you so much for being here.
Madison Morrigan
Thank you. And I have one more thing I wanted to say. Because I, I have felt and still feel so similarly to you that like, gosh, I have a lot of stuff, you know, no one’s gonna marry me and have this amazing, happy family that they’re married again to like, you know, my, my family life is chaotic. It’s like, I have wounds as a result of that, that I’ve worked on healing, but sometimes they’re still there. And sometimes my attachment stuff still gets flagged and something that I found. I was proven wrong in my story is that you and I share that, like, no one’s gonna love me and miss that, like, my current partner was my roommate previously. And she saw everything I went through with my ex. She saw what I consider to be my lowest point where I was like, I’m so ashamed that I’ve gotten here. How could this happen? To You know, my arrogance? Someone like me, who like knows better, you know, and just saw me act in ways that I was like, just, I was like, I don’t even like who I being right now. And she was like, we’re all we’re all human. We all make mistakes, like, I still want to be with you. And I’m like, do you need to remember to remind you of all this terrible things. List of why I’m terrible. And she was like, You really could just try less. And I’m still trying to learn how to do that. But I appreciate the fact that she said it. To you, too. Yeah, it was some balm for me. Oh, I
Akua Konadu
love that try last I’m gonna carry that because I feel like even right now I’m just doing all the things and I feel like there’s somebody listening as well to feels like they’re doing all the things. And we don’t have to do all the things we can just be and try less. So. Yeah, I love that. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you, everybody, for listening. I hope that you were able to gain something from this conversation as much as I did. So this was wonderful. But thank you again, everybody for listening. And until next time. Thank you so much for tuning into here’s the tea with a cooler. If you are loving the podcast, I’d be so honored if you’d go ahead and hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcast player and leave me a review. This helps grow the podcast so more people can be impacted by the story shared by powerful guests like in today’s episode. Until next time, go make uncomfortable conversations a little more comfortable.
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